three. three. three. three. videos for your media project c.e.o. don dart t.v. dot com. this is all see the headlines. these are live pictures from cairo where protesters gather for a sunday fewer is an american made film making a mockery of the prophet mohammad plungers until you've been seen outside the u.s. embassy that egypt's health ministry has seventy people have the need for. rage against the film is spreading across the region with others but you are with the u.s. mission time to have been almost a dozen countries including again iran and iran while its allies to unfold and even

city have been suspended. also strongly condemns the dead president governments around the world try to get. by. on right now a commission of interest topic discussions with host. if you. follow me in welcoming crosstalk on people about from the arab spring to the arab blowback when it counts for the rise of violence across the arab middle east was the killing of the american ambassador in benghazi really a reaction to an alleged short film defaming islam or are we witnessing a carefully planned and coordinated campaign against western meddling in the arab

world. and. to cross out the recent rise of violence in the in the arab middle east i'm joined by now bill ramdani in london she is a journalist an academic who specializes in the arab middle east and north africa in washington we have mohamed ghanem he is director of government relations for the syrian american council and intricacy we crossed a veejay brush and he is the author of arab spring libyan winter folks cross talk rules and if i mean you can jump in anytime you want in the below what is going on here we have the anniversary of nine eleven we have the killing of the american ambassador in libya i mean and then we have this weird film how do you connect the dots here. well you know the narrative is not very straightforward all we know is that there has been a film which is perceived offensive by muslim communities around the world which

was applauded on to you tube and it sparked riots in egypt and it led to attacks against the u.s. embassy as the film is believed to be american print produced and then the anger spilled over to libya a very quickly and it provoked people to attack u.s. missions and then the u.s. consulate in libya and it led to were deeply shocking development which is the murder effectively of the u.s. ambassador to libya along with three other colleagues from the embassy. what darts do you want to connect here most of resign or story. it's a bizarre story on the face of it that is true and i think it has put the basic points down very well i would just like to add one more important piece of context benghazi from january on wood has had

a series of important events take place there was the attack at the national transitional council headquarters there was the attack on the british convoys which was carrying the consul general so the british abandoned their call consulate in over the summer there was an attack on the un libyan mission head in benghazi there was a pipe bomb outside the u.s. embassy so there have been a series of incidences in benghazi that tell us a lot about the actu grammar of politics in libya today but that is going to be lost as the benghazi story gets swept didn't do a much larger narrative about say some film or about terrorism i think those are actually red herrings as far as the events in benghazi are concerned ok mohamed if i can go to you i mean how do you see the narrative going on here we we have very different things going on ok and the u.s.

wants to take reaction ok how do you connect the dots. sure now the middle east is going through a transitional period this is critical this important old like all transitional period are usually characterized by an element of chaos and management management sorry you know transitional period is crucial and essential to ensuring that such tragic incidents do not occur of course i'd like to start by saying we condemn in the strongest possible possible terms the senseless killings and benghazi especially against a dedicated diplomat who believed in libya loved libya and even love the culture now i would just like to point out that now that the middle east is transition towards democracy and freedom people people who would have access to information people in that part of the world i mean. how many how do we going to you know what's the transition democracy here because it seems like we're seeing a lot more violence and it looks like blowback don't you think you're getting ahead of yourself you're getting ahead of yourself here i think go ahead and i don't i don't think so sir because people in that part of the world people in and out of

the world when i did not have access to information ok this is something that they don't understand how the system here for example in the united states of america works they thought that this is something that the u.s. sanctioned the u.s. is happy with maybe the u.s. is sponsoring they don't understand you know. you know there is freedom of speech here although of course this is something this movie is something we personally would if we didn't ignore our you know here in american organizations that ignore syrians we have always you know urge syrians and others and then it is to ignore it's a it's a horrible thing but however people end up out of the world now will enjoy better access to information that will understand how things work here and there would be lesser than but however it's important to say that u.s. official sources said that the you know the this trashy movie might have been used as a diversion and investigations now are under way this might have been you know a planned attack by al qaida. to be already planned here in the bill if i can go back to you here it looks like

a very coordinated plan here killing the ambassador. not just a bunch of ferguson he'd go ahead. absolutely and although i think people have every right to be offended by what was a very poisonous film insulting the islamic faith i don't believe for an instant that the murders carried out in libya have anything to do with the expression of anger by by a mob it has everything to do with a murderous carried out by radical groups let's not forget that the attack against the u.s. embassy in libya was a military attack with the use of. rocket propelled grenades and and machine guns and. highlighted earlier. ghazi which is a cradle of the road a libyan revolution has a calm and a tax numerous times at the hands of radical group known as sharia

which has carried out numerous exit cue sions over the last few months and indeed attacks against other western well you know minute abilify going on believe me if i could stay with you here i mean again again you know we only find out about the instability nato's work in libya only when the american ambassador dies as d.g. said early in the program this is a very unstable country. i think it's slightly unfair to say that because there have been reports in the past about for example an egyptian diplomat being attacked in libya a diplomat or indeed attacks carried out against the convoy of a u.k. diplomat for example and also reports about violence carried out against the libyan people who are the victims of extreme violence on the regular basis now in libya and if i may add a few points i don't think it's a coincidence that the death of the u.s.

ambassador to libya came on the day of the nine eleven the anniversary of the nine eleven attacks against the usa a team to be a pretty a well coordinated attack carried out by radicals who are well equipped in the context of an unregulated country where weapons are washington ammunitions available ok mohamed i think go to you there is growing evidence to the united states is aligned with al qaeda in syria but at the same time syria is attacking americans in libya how do you explain that is that explainable. i think the statement would insult the intelligence of a twelve year old boy or girl let alone educated people you know this is the narrative that's a regime is trying to promote you know that this is america israel and cried out there all kept coming together you know joining together in order to destabilize syria of course this is this is even hillary clinton said even hillary clinton has said that so it's not there's a mountain of action between the two no no no no no she didn't say that no no no

she did not she did not she didn't say that search and i said i mean there what e.j. can i go to you i don't know what about. let me go b.j. now. what do you say let me just what do you think about that i would say. go ahead well i would say that the first part of your state may not be true which is that i don't think what happened in gaza. he was a consequence of al qaeda i think what a lot of people are mistaking is when they see men with beards and with the black flag they're not you know the standard of the eagle they assume that they're all alike either but in libya in fact the libyan islamic fighting group and even i think on several sharia has distanced itself from al qaeda so it's certainly a consequence of a kind of political islam ism but it's not identical to al qaida but what is happening in syria well that is also i think often overlooked construed to be either has become this kind of simple boogie man to explain everything in binary is

you know the world is too complicated to see as terrorist worse is anti terrorist it is much more nuanced than that you know bill what do you think about that i mean are we seeing a blow are we seeing a blowback after the arab spring is this a different phase in your mind. well i think just to come back very quickly a sponsor think there's no the radicals behind the murders in libya are inspired by a kind of there's no doubt about that given the way they pretty did but i think more generally speaking i think the arabs and you know. because i just explained the way they proceeded using military attack using propelled rocket propelled grenades machine guns and the way to proceed and.

this led to try to. see him picnics long before al qaeda was created you know the libyan islamic fighting group has been using those tactics from a maybe about five six years before there was foreign. and i want to talk about why are those that one and i think go to my holidays i'm going to does that in washington we are going to more than break go ahead but i'm it's importance important to remember that those that won the elections and libya were liberals liberals are not the real islamist out let the fighting in syria so this tells you a lot you know a whole lot about the libyan people let's be clear what happened in libya does not reflect the views of the overwhelming majority of people but i guess this this country now is experiencing some security champagne here we're going to a short break and after that chat after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the rise of violence in the mideast stay with art. and.

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led. zeppelin. little clip if you. are listening to. the little. welcome back to rostock i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're talking about the growing tensions in the middle east. live. if you. live. ok v.j.

if i go back to you i'd like to quote something that you recently wrote about what's going on in libya you called it the humiliations accumulate without outlet what do you mean by that. well for instance over the last twenty years ever since there was an islamist movement in mainly eastern libya the gadhafi regime clamped down on it with a great deal of force and you must remember that in nineteen ninety six when there was the first islamist uprising in the prisons of abu salim there was a major massacre then in two thousand and six there was a huge demonstration in benghazi after the danish cartoon controversy the gadhafi regime opened fire on it eleven people were killed it was on the fifth anniversary of that uprising or that protest that police firing that these prairie seventeen two thousand and eleven revolt opened up in libya so the people who have been

fighting for a certain kind of freedom in libya when they came to a political understanding of how it should open up that is to say in the elections of july the rules were constructed in such a way where they had no chance of being able to put forward their opinions they had eighteen days to campaign and they were not able to have a showing in the in the pause meanwhile the diasporic liberals who had come on the wings of the need to intervention were able to dominate the new libyan parliament and i think there's a great deal of frustration he stimulate b. and other parts of libya about how this political consensus has been crafted and how they are once more left out and i think that is the sense of humiliation and rage without a reasonable political outlet ok mohamed which i. of course of course you know this is you know the underlying assumption is you know what dictators are really cool we

need to have the only power. usually you are places they say in this case is a euphemism please excuse me sir and these allow me to finish please allow me to finish you let me explain to you know you will not try and there you know no sir it's our standing. violence going on in the mix here is me there is so much violence going on in the middle east look at syria now we're talking about events in libya there are tragic but four individuals were killed of course that's tragic but syria what's a dictatorship in syria doing more than twenty seven thousand people have been killed in syria and was the wind and the kind of shit that claims to be liberal mama qaddafi killed so many people in libya and more important than he that the wire ok you know he used to crack down on people in libya i guess you know the revolution there and then you know when the when when the mob of qaddafi was was toppled they went to mali and now we have trouble and so it's important to say that there is so much fine and i don't even want to go to goes i don't know you don't really love the solution to be talking about it. the only solution but i know

a lot about syria the only solution is to help democracy if we're going there you want to talk about things you don't know if. gentlemen let's go to the nicely the only bill and let me go back to the london here how does nato intervention look in libya now after all this. well that's the thing you know we've heard people saying that it was pretty ungrateful from the libyan you use such extreme violence and indeed resort to murder. in return for american intervention in libya but i think at the heart of the of the shocking development in libya is that you know very strong anti american sentiment that remains not just in libya but there i say across the muslim world and although the arab spring did a lot to perhaps strengthen the relationship between the west and indeed the muslim world there is still an awful lot of suspicion and indeed distrust as to the role

of america in the middle east and north africa and let's not forget that this is also due to because of the the west's use keenly of violence itself to justify its own political and you know it's become routine no you hear about the drone strikes taking out alleged terrorists all indeed interventions taking sides into civil war effectively as was the case in libya to bring about regime change in a country like libya and that a kind of interventionism still triggers and very strong anti-american sentiment you know mohamed you said you knew a lot about syria and so would you like to see nato intervention in syria in light of what's happened in libya i would say. i would say i would say that people in there are not really asking for the people are in syria are our scheme for the syrian people to be able to protect themselves against the fixed wing aircraft

attacks by the assad regime against the heavy artillery against you know shelling against constant bombardment by the assad regime this is what the people in syria are asking for they're willing to fight for their freedom and they're actually doing that there is no help from the international community russia it's true that our side. is an international issue in international law. ah ok excuse me it's chosen international law. about the killing of twenty seven thousand more than twenty seven thousand people displacing in more than one point two. years and about syria we talk about who armed rebels ok but ok v.j. if i go to you and that's you still see that you know there's suspicion of the west when it talks about democracy in the region across the entire region well let me put it to you factually last week human rights watch released a very important report which was about the collaboration between the cia m i six and the gadhafi regime in extraditing through the extraordinary rendition

program several militants from across asia and africa they were brought to libya where they were tortured one of them mr bell hired became a major fight in the twenty eleven war against gadhafi and was then the emir of tripoli well mr bell hides in that report says when will there be an apology for me i was treated you know my form four month old pregnant my wife was pregnant or four months old she was chained she was brought into libya handed over to the gadhafi regime so what people like mr bell hard to understand is there is no accounting for the collaboration of agencies like the cia and m i six with the gadhafi regime there is no opening for them to have a conversation about the bombings during the need to war i mean these things are blocked naturally they're suspicious and now we're going to go off the coast of

libya and drones flying over eastern libya that suspicion is only going to heighten you know the ability that you know v.j. brings up a really good point it's always resorting to violence that's the solution to everything violence not dialogue. yes indeed and the the ascendancy of jihad is and he's also linked to the west's violence to. deal with the arab world and indeed the muslim world and it's almost like a very vicious circle. and at the heart of all these the very ambiguous and there i say hypocritical relation of the world and the muslim well i'm going to jump in yeah i would strongly i'm sorry to say i agree with some what you said but i would strongly disagree with was saying you know think about it there are one point six billion muslims around the world with the whole muslim community around the world should not be taken hostage because of the you know the

operations by by a few individuals what happened in libya does not represent what people who are in the middle east who are committed to peaceful coexistence. stand for so i think it's important to remember at the end of the day these are a bunch of individuals these things happen everywhere and we should not take the whole community the only solution for these things is democracy i must assume the mother said what i said mohammad that's not what you know it's always a right wing radicals who. are very unstable i'm sorry and i mean i agree with you on that but when he said you know the rise you said indeed he said the only solution is violence not dialogue is that indeed that's that's the point i would like to. see the west always resorts to violence that's what i said ok to be clear ok what do you think about that. well i mean i think it's true i think there's a sort of knee jerk reaction to have a military solution any time there's violence like this i mean you know there is no

understanding of the consequences of a foreign policy maneuver you know do people think through the long term implications of sending in a police action firing drones i mean even putting say the network on the terrorism list is going to close down doors in afghanistan for a certain kind of dialogue so if every action is treated you know way you see anybody who opposes me is a terrorist and must be killed you know we're going to have to resort to mass murder in order to have the opinions of washington be realized in the middle east they're out currency in the middle east that don't agree with the kind of neo liberal policies with a certain kind of understanding of how the state should operate well they need to have the space to articulate this in the political realm otherwise they are going to cut off themselves further into very dangerous and very very marginal violent

action came how would you like to reply to that. of course i would agree with with him you know you know like peaceful talks and negotiations and conflict resolution should be the first resort and i think if you think about syria now for eighteen months we're saying that the west there's this knee jerk reaction for eighteen months now horrific things happen in syria and no one has done anything you know it's gone to the united nations security council time and again and it has proved to be a big failure of course because of russia and china so i fail a real rebels or the failure of the rebels ok well. you know the pressure on assad himself i would i would trust what you know what bashar assad said he said that for the six first six months of the revolution not a single syrian took up arms against the government and so why why on god's green earth thousands of people were killed in the first six months now. paul you know how to defend themselves we cannot tolerate children with sharp genitals and we cannot tolerate that in syria and that's why people are defending themselves but in

fact they're getting little support if any ok bill i'll give you the last word where do we go from here well i think mohamed is quite right to highlight the extreme the serious situation in syria but there i said the president of libya has . contributed a lot to block any progress that the u.n. level because it's i think it's a fairly simplistic to say that the intervention of some sort not necessarily a military one is being blocked by countries like russia and china but in light of the ascendancy of radical groups and radical bill i'm afraid i'm going to jump in here very very wise and i want to thank all of you many thanks to my guest today in london in washington if you could be and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. so you next time and remember. motion

to be soon which brightened the food down sound from fans to pressure. moves from stunts on t.v. don't come. i'm in sochi to know your city in europe i'm the host of the twenty four feet which are the pick of. sunset. thank you. saatchi. thank you. dog this is. the friday is it. it's the calm. of the. sudsy.